In this episode I'm joined by Tim Rayner from ChapmanCG, a leading, global executive search firm dedicated solely to the Human Resource profession. Tim has been working in talent management and executive search for over 20 years. He is based in Europe where he specialises in senior HR search assignments. We talk about trends he’s seeing in the world of human resources, recruitment, and what he's hearing from the clients he works with at the most senior levels.
James Judge 0:10
Welcome to the people and culture podcast with me, James judge. Today I'm very happy to be talking to an old mate of mine, Tim Rayner, who works for an organisation called Chapmancg. They're a leading global executive search firm dedicated solely to the human resource profession. Tim has been working in talent management and executive search for over 20 years. We met in the early 2000s when he was living in Australia, but for the last 10 years, he's been based out of Europe, where he specialises in senior HR search assignments. Because of this, I thought he would be the perfect person to speak with to find out what trends he's seeing in the world of human resources, recruitment. And what he's hearing from clients he works with at the most senior levels. Tim, great to have you on the podcast. Whereabouts are you dialing in from today? Are you in Andalusia?
Tim Rayner 1:06
Yes, I'm in southern Spain, in Cadiz and Andalusia James. So yeah, where are you today?
James Judge 1:13
I'm sitting here in Canberra, our rustic, rural capital,
Tim Rayner 1:17
Ah Canberra, I know it well, great to be talking to you.
James Judge 1:21
just to give the listeners a little more detail about what you do. Can you tell us about what roles you've been working on in the last little while?
Tim Rayner 1:29
Yeah, thanks, James. I mean, as you mentioned, we're a global HR search firm, we typically get involved in roles, up to CHRO level, from sort of 10 to 15 years experience upwards. So that could be anything in you know, what we call generalist HR roles. Or it could be in more of the expertise roles, such as rewards, talent management, HR, shared services, learning and development, people engagement. And yeah, so some of the roles that we've been working on recently would be things such as Global Head of executive compensation, Global Head of rewards, we're working on a number of global and regional HR business partner roles for organizations. So yeah, that they're the sort of types of roles that we typically get involved in, in our business.
James Judge 2:24
So seeing your roles, it sounds like you're covering the full gamut of human resource disciplines.
Tim Rayner 2:30
Yeah, that's right. Yeah, essentially, anything sort of HR related?
James Judge 2:34
Let's go to a geopolitical question. We've come out of some pretty serious lockdowns in many parts of the world in 2020. We've got inflation globally rising interest rates, a war in Ukraine, that's been going just over 12 months, you know, post Brexit impacts in UK and Ireland, or any of these larger issues having any effect on the HR profession, do you think?
Tim Rayner 2:56
I think it's having a lot of effect. Yeah, a lot of impact. I would say, you know, the pandemic was particularly stressful for HR leaders, I would say, arguably, more for them, you know, having to deal with the brunt of people, people related business challenges. So I think we're still, you know, we're still dealing with that. There is a lot of people moving roles. Still, HR is one of the, you know, one of the professions which seemingly has sort of more intense turnover than a lot of other professions, according to LinkedIn some months ago. So I think that's definitely had some impact naturally, things like the war in Ukraine, and inflation also, you know, having impact in many ways.
James Judge 3:40
One of the things I noticed in Australia, Tim, in 2020, was that everyone was encouraged to work from home, and many organisations had to pivot fairly rapidly to enable it to happen. The issue I now see is that a lot of people enjoy not having to come into the office and some organisations are struggling to get people back. I know, Elon Musk's first message to staff at Twitter, late last year was no more remote work. What are you seeing organisations doing over in your part of the world? Are they encouraging remote work, tolerating stopping something entirely different perhaps
Tim Rayner 4:15
it's a significant challenge for organisations, James, and we're seeing organisations acting across the board. So some being totally flexible, and continuing that - others having been totally flexible and now having a strong encouragement or push to having people back in the offices and other organisations. You know, interestingly, some in industries, would you where you would expect full flexibility that are really almost insisting that people are back in, you know, into the offices at least four days a week. So we're seeing a lot of very different approaches in the market. What's been interesting in the last few months is that we've across To teams and with my colleagues, we're seeing people that previously, were flexible and open to working from home. And maybe headquarters was in a different country, that are now saying to us, that we really want to be back in the office. And we do actually want to be able to see people and be near people. So I think we're still seeing a correction in terms of what people are wanting, you know, without doubt, I think there is a an expectation of a certain amount of flexibility, one way or another when people join organisations. So it's a, it's an interesting topic, we're seeing lots of different things happening. As I said, I think it's still in correction mode.
James Judge 5:44
So different approaches being taken by different companies in different sectors, all those some of the organizations you're dealing with, it's saying, Look, we want to see more people in the office. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I know, one of the things we actually had this discussion a few months ago, and you mentioned, the high levels of staff turnover in HR, especially, is that something across the board that you're seeing and any views on what might be causing this,
Tim Rayner 6:09
there's a lot of different reasons for people looking at leaving and, you know, finding a new challenge, I think there was pent up demand over the last few years, the environment was particularly stressful. There seems to be an ongoing level of demand for really great HR leaders that can have influence on culture that can have influence on engagement, and can really help transform organizations to their next their next stage or reinvent organization. So I think the demand for all from organizations, for great HR leaders has increased. And, you know, as I said, there's on the whole, people seem to be generally open to hearing and, you know, looking at new challenges, having perhaps, you know, been in fairly stressful environments for the last three or four years where they may have been committed to that organization through tough times. So, you know, there's obviously a whole range of different reasons as well, people's personal situations have often taken a priority or change significantly in the last few years, for various reasons. And that has an impact. So yeah, the sort of complexity around it, I don't think is, can be underestimated. But I think that's there continues to be demand, and, you know, continues to be a general openness to hearing about great challenges and opportunities.
James Judge 7:42
You mentioned there, the desire to have leaders who can engage staff is ongoing, it's critical. I had a guest on the podcast recently who wrote a book, in which she talked about having purpose is critical in engaging and retaining staff. She was talking especially about millennials, any views on this?
Tim Rayner 8:04
Yeah, I listened to that podcast actually, James. And and it really rang true with some of the things that we're seeing as well, I would say that purpose is probably on the top three to five priorities for people as they look at joining a new organization. So working for an organization where they feel they can find purpose, whether that's in you know, a healthcare organization, whether that's in a organization, which is extremely focused on, you know, the environment and sustainability, we get exposed to the various different generations in the work that we do. But I, I wouldn't want to differentiate across any of those generations, right, based on experience or my experience, but I would say that purpose, per se, seems to be a lot more on people's agendas now than it was say let's, even five years ago,
James Judge 8:59
kind of interesting. The other thing that's been happening over the last few months has been it in tech companies laying off staff. So probably some of the headline names Amazon, Microsoft, Google, but it seems to be impacting for heavy on those big three, it's probably not directly related to what you do. But do you get a sense that some companies or sectors in Europe are preparing to downsize or are indeed downsizing?
Tim Rayner 9:25
We we're seeing that already? We're seeing that, you know, we felt that probably halfway through last year with the tech organisation, some of which ones you mentioned, but certainly has had a profound impact on tech organisations across the board of various sizes. So I think that's significant. And I think there's a certain amount of nervousness or cautious sentiment out there, which to a degree is holding other organisations back in terms of making plans or or hiring. However, the old term that the triple speed economy that was You know, we heard 2008 2009 seems to sort of be in my mind that there's a lot of organisations doing really well. There's a lot of organise, you know, large and small across numerous industries, including tech. And there are a lot of it weather organisations that are growing or looking at repositioning, or redefining how they do things. So, you know, it doesn't feel like it's all doom and gloom, from our perspective, by any stretch of the imagination, but obviously, you know, there are organisations and people that have been affected. But, you know, I'd say if we talked to different leaders in our organisation, there would be a fairly positive sentiment about the next six to 12 months, at least from a HR and HR hiring perspective, across the globe,
James Judge 10:50
out of the clients you have, and I guess, the senior people you're talking to, what are some examples of positive innovations in human resource practices or approach that you're seeing or hearing about?
Tim Rayner 11:02
Yeah, I think it's an interesting one. I mean, obviously, technology has been at the forefront of people, the people systems and people approach for some years, but it feels like one of the key areas that we're seeing at the moment, which has huge potential impact, I would say, is around the talent, intelligence technology. So this has got the capability potentially, to help organisations deeply understand, you know, what's open and in the market from a talent perspective, both internally and externally, what's going to be required in various markets moving forward. So you know, looking at the predictive elements, as well. And they're really making, you know, taking the workforce planning in organisations to the next level. Workforce Planning is a term which has been phrased for many decades. And you know, in HR, I don't think you could say necessarily that organisations really got to a point where they feel they've, they've managed their workforce planning, particularly effectively. So I think that there's a lot of potential from the technology in this space, which is going to help organisations really make a difference in terms of how they bring people into the organisation, how they hold on to, you know, people in their organisations already, how they attract skills into the organisation, and even, you know, more innovative topics, like sharing skill sets across, you know, the industries and organisations even within the competitive environment. So, I'd say that would be the the most predominant, innovative element that we're hearing organisations talk about at the moment, James,
James Judge 12:55
I'm so glad you brought that up. Because I think I think this collectively, and look, I could be wrong, it's not my area, but the HR tech stack, as it's sometimes referred to. I know. I mean, I've been across various tools. And in fact, I'm accredited and various tools like the predictive index and other tools that have been around that are there to assist organizations make better hiring decisions, but what you're talking about? I think, Tim, is he's above and beyond that, you're talking about not just attracting staff and making better recruitment decisions, but better engaging staff better retaining staff sort of elevating that workforce planning to another level, does this include there was someone was talking to a month ago actually was a function I went to and he was talking about some, I won't look, I'm gonna pull a plug in, but I'm probably showing my ignorance, but it was, it was some tool that worked with LinkedIn that really could do a deep dive into candidate background. Does this ring any bells with you? Or is this something that is part of this sort of improvement in workforce planning practices? Or are there other kinds of systems and software out there?
Tim Rayner 14:01
Yeah, we're hearing about a lot of things that plugin sort of phrase rings true that can sort of bolt into different systems and different organizations and is fairly fragile from that perspective. And I think they, you know, they do tap into a whole range of different data and information. So certainly doesn't surprise me. I'm not an expert in the, in this space at all. So all I can share is what I hear from people that I talked to that are experts, but I think it's fairly early days, James, you know, there are there are organizations that are really looking into this and investing in this heavily. But, you know, it's, it's, you know, this is sort of really at the point of early days. So I'd say, you know, it'll be interesting to see what sort of comes out of this in one or two years, but, you know, hard to hard to sort of make any other comments from my perspective, at least
James Judge 14:56
Yeah, neither of us being IT professionals. Exactly. Yeah, having admitted and we both said, This is not our subject matter area of expertise. What about AI? Has it been a discussion about AI and HR recruitment workforce planning? Because it's something you've come across?
Tim Rayner 15:13
Yeah, I think I think it's part of I think it's part of what we just discussed, I think it's an integrated element. Two, obviously ended up evolving rapidly, as, as we know, you know, from reading the news, day in day out. So I think, you know, certainly the AI is, is a tool, which has been used, probably more, you know, has more, we've got more history with that, so that the ai ai mechanisms and, you know, conversations happening in organizations, shared services, functions, or their people services functions, which would be the sort of first line of inquiry for, you know, HR queries for employees. So I think that's probably sort of evolved more than what we're what we were just referring to around that sort of talent, talent, intelligence, technology. But no doubt, it will be part of a very important part of that talent, technology,
James Judge 16:09
any other trends or anything of interest that you're seeing that might be of interest to the listeners?
Tim Rayner 16:16
Yeah, I think, you know, businesses move in cyclical ways, James, don't they, you know, they tend to sort of whether it's centralization, or decentralization, you know, depends on what's happening in that organization and the history, you tend to move through cycles over the years, as you and I have both experienced personally. But it does, it does seem that there's a very strong focus in organizations at the moment, but trying to get that balance, right, between having global systems or frameworks in place, but also being able to, you know, act and think very locally, whether that's in a country or whether that's in a region for a particular business unit, so that they can offer the best services and the best people solutions for organizations. I think so. That's the that's, that's another thing which we're seeing across many organizations, is that sort of balance between thinking globally and acting locally, not a new term, but I think, you know, a significant challenge.
James Judge 17:21
And Tim, what's the best way for people to find you have a look at the Chapman CG website? LinkedIn?
Tim Rayner 17:28
Yeah, people, I'm always happy to talk to people. I'm particularly passionate about HR and people's careers and organizations and how they can have impact, you know, through people and wellness and sustainability. So yeah, I'm I'm on LinkedIn or on find my profile on our website. So hopefully, I'll be fairly easily accessible. James.
James Judge 17:48
I Tim, fantastic to talk to you. Thank you so much for your time this evening.
Tim Rayner 17:53
James been an absolute pleasure. Always enjoy our interactions. Thank you. And I really enjoy your podcast and I have they continued.
James Judge 18:01
Thanks, mate. Talk soon. You've been listening to the people and culture podcast with me, James Judge. Feel free to share this episode with anyone you think might get some value from the conversation. Any reviews you leave wherever you subscribe or listen to your podcasts are also very welcome. I've got a company, James Judge and Associates where among other things, I run highly interactive seminars on how to have better conversations in the workplace, whether that's performance discussions, career conversations, or handling complex customer complaints. If you're interested in finding out more and want to reach out, send me an email or contact me on LinkedIn where you can find me pretty easily. This podcast was recorded on the traditional lands of the Ngunnawal people and I pay my respects to the elders of that nation, past and present